|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 14, 2010 11:37:26 GMT
In scotland we have struggled big time in europe in the past couple of years can we use lack of money as an excuse?Unirea beat a sad huns team 4-1 at greyskull last season and they are no big spenders!, Is it coaching thats the problem or cash or even the league we play in?, do us the fans think our teams are better than they really are, do the media bum us up too much in european games and we fall for it all of the time?,in reality is Scottish football as bad as the results show?
thoughts..
|
|
|
Post by patmac on Sept 14, 2010 11:41:57 GMT
poor coaches and scouts and a refusal to pay the going rate for quality is imo where we're goin wrong
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 14, 2010 11:46:37 GMT
poor coaches and scouts and a refusal to pay the going rate for quality is imo where we're goin wrong Does that mean that moneys ruining it for you?, you cant pay good wages to a mediocre player?, look at bullard and sol campbell for example, none of them have kicked a ball for the 1st team this season and both would have got 60 odd thousand pounds in wages between them. waste of money in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by patmac on Sept 14, 2010 11:50:19 GMT
poor coaches and scouts and a refusal to pay the going rate for quality is imo where we're goin wrong Does that mean that moneys ruining it for you?, well aye if we wont spend it lol as for dullard and the others they are a waste of money but with better scouts we could find better value than 30 something money grabbers
|
|
|
Post by kylebhoy on Sept 14, 2010 12:00:31 GMT
i think money has ruined the beautiful game with players wanting more than they are worth and clubs selling players for stupid prices i think money has ruined football
|
|
|
Post by dan3 on Sept 14, 2010 12:22:37 GMT
Are we as bad as results show ? im sorry to say yes we are,the europa league is now our level,i honestly feel we will struggle like hell to even get a shot at the c/l group in the next few years.
Has money ruined the game ? HELL YES !!!!!!!,uefa have built a compitition solely for the big leagues,they see them as cash cows and leagues like ours simply dont fit in,they have turned the C/L in to a joke in there chase for more and more money,they should re-name it to the champions 2nd 3rd and 4th placed league.The fact that CELTIC take the biggest away following in europe counts for nothing with them,if your not in the big leagues then they simply dont want to know.
|
|
|
Post by jasbhoy on Sept 14, 2010 12:39:45 GMT
Of course money has ruined football, and not just in Europe, most of the money is in the European leagues where they cherry pick the talent from Africa, Asia and South America whilst Nero Platini fiddles as the professional sport of football implodes.
I'm willing to bet the last 8 in the CL will hold 8 teams from the 5 big leagues and probably the same 8 as last year, it is not the exciting competition that UEFA would have you believe, it is boring and predictable, sooner or later the viewing public and sponsors will realise this and it will signal the end of the cash cow in Europe.
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 14, 2010 12:47:26 GMT
People have a false image of where we as Scottish teams stand in Europe. That was caused by teams spending money that they simply didn't have. Murray started it with the huns and we followed suit. That led to Scottish teams having moderate success in Europe and the co-efficient getting better. Hence at one time having 2 teams getting into the CL, albeit one at the qualifying stage.
At the time the huns started spending big the English teams were banned from Europe, so what you had were players coming to Scotland, on the same wages, and being able to play in Europe. At one time the team with the most of the English first team was in fact the huns. However it is simply not a sustainable business model, we don't earn enough money to do it and to pay the wages required. To commit to them and then fail to reach the CL is unthinkable.
We are one of the biggest Clubs in the World, from the point of view of our history an our fanbase. However financially we are crippled in terms of trying to compete in Europe. Things will change, now that we are moving towards a different way of doing things, bringing in younger players who don'tr cost the earth and developing them. I think the future is bright, but only based on the fact that we are changing the way we have worked, you only have to look at the ages of a lot of our players to see that.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 14, 2010 13:28:20 GMT
If we had Mourinho managing Celtic and Fergie managing the huns do you think that money would matter then?, would Celtic have lost to Braga if Mourinho was the boss and we had the same players?, if not then it must be the coaching and not finances.
|
|
|
Post by jasbhoy on Sept 14, 2010 14:05:24 GMT
If we had Mourinho managing Celtic and Fergie managing the huns do you think that money would matter then?, would Celtic have lost to Braga if Mourinho was the boss and we had the same players?, if not then it must be the coaching and not finances. Didn't Braga have several players from South America? apart from Juarez when was the last time we got a quality player from that region? Scheidt.....exactly.
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 14, 2010 14:28:55 GMT
There is clearly more than one reason for the situation we are in but by far the biggest one has been finances. Things are changing because we are cutting our cloth mor to suit what we can afford, and good 22 year olds at a reasonable price, probably on a lower wage, suit us much better than well established professionals. Our spending is not as high as it was under MON, either in fees for bringin in players or on the wages we pay to them when they get here. Let's face it Chris Suttoncoming from the EPL is going to be substantially more expensive than someone like Stokes, and on a considerably higher wage. The same goes for the likes of Juares and Kayal. Not too expensive, wages not too high, but quality players who will do a good job for us and be sold at a profit.
We will win the SPL this year, if we qualify for the CL we will make a lot of money from it, that money can be used to improve the squad. But it wan't all be spent on transfer fees, some needs put aside for additional wages, and some as a contingency for failing to do it in the following season.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 14, 2010 14:53:43 GMT
If we had Mourinho managing Celtic and Fergie managing the huns do you think that money would matter then?, would Celtic have lost to Braga if Mourinho was the boss and we had the same players?, if not then it must be the coaching and not finances. Didn't Braga have several players from South America? apart from Juarez when was the last time we got a quality player from that region? Scheidt.....exactly. What has south American players got to do with it?, Celtic have beaten Shaktar and they had south American players in their team, all i am saying is if we had a better coach(Mourinho) would Celtic have had a better chance of beating Braga?Juninho was the last south American.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 14, 2010 14:58:39 GMT
There is clearly more than one reason for the situation we are in but by far the biggest one has been finances. Things are changing because we are cutting our cloth mor to suit what we can afford, and good 22 year olds at a reasonable price, probably on a lower wage, suit us much better than well established professionals. Our spending is not as high as it was under MON, either in fees for bringin in players or on the wages we pay to them when they get here. Let's face it Chris Suttoncoming from the EPL is going to be substantially more expensive than someone like Stokes, and on a considerably higher wage. The same goes for the likes of Juares and Kayal. Not too expensive, wages not too high, but quality players who will do a good job for us and be sold at a profit. We will win the SPL this year, if we qualify for the CL we will make a lot of money from it, that money can be used to improve the squad. But it wan't all be spent on transfer fees, some needs put aside for additional wages, and some as a contingency for failing to do it in the following season. What about the fact that we are not allowed to sign players from anywhere the same way a lot of european teams can, Jasbhoy said that Braga had several south Americans in their team and so do the russians and i'll bet they are not on great wages in Portugal, maybe if we allowed in more foreigners it may change the face of the game in Scotland.
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 14, 2010 15:23:47 GMT
I think the reason we are not allowed to sign players from across the World and other teams are is the nationality rules within their country. Hence the likes of the French being able to get players more easily from Africa, the Portugese and Spanish getting a lot of players from South America. That may affect the position with regard to them getting work permits because of the historic and current links. You are right about the wages, however as soon as they make their name here then they will be attracted to a bigger league with higher wages. We are to a certain extent a stepping stone for these players. However that's always been the case. Play them for a couple of seasons and if the right offer comes in move them on. That's down to good scouting and coaching of course. However looking at how some of our new ghuys are doing that seems to be going pretty well.
|
|
|
Post by gezzabhoy67 on Sept 14, 2010 21:14:22 GMT
dont think sky throwing millions at the epl has helped us in anyway...nor has the format for the champions league helped us either...where in some cases 4 or more teams from the same country can be in the competition....but we have also shot ourselves in the foot..with our inept defending away from home in europe...obviously costing us financially
|
|
|
Post by dodgesilkybhoy on Sept 14, 2010 22:45:29 GMT
Are we as bad as results show ? im sorry to say yes we are,the europa league is now our level,i honestly feel we will struggle like hell to even get a shot at the c/l group in the next few years. Has money ruined the game ? HELL YES !!!!!!!,uefa have built a compitition solely for the big leagues,they see them as cash cows and leagues like ours simply dont fit in,they have turned the C/L in to a joke in there chase for more and more money,they should re-name it to the champions 2nd 3rd and 4th placed league.The fact that CELTIC take the biggest away following in europe counts for nothing with them,if your not in the big leagues then they simply dont want to know. cant agree more mate champs league is a joke so is the europa league fk me its like if you cant make enough money out the champs league there is a parachute into another tournament, i know we have dropped into the eufa cup and europa league but i did not agree with it at the time and still dont its all money orientated... ...blatter and platini's perfect scenario is two of the big country's teams getting to the champs league final... then a barrow load of 3rd placed big teams dropping into the europa league battering the also rans oot the way into the final of the europa cup=== more tv money to dish out to the same teams next year and the cycle continues more pie for the english italian spanish germans ect ect ......but nowt for us!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by carson67 on Sept 14, 2010 23:01:12 GMT
Its a combination of factors why we struggle in Europe i know thats not the question but the most important factor for me is due a lack of investment at youth level and looking for the quick fix instead of looking to the long term. Also the CL is a joke.,a cash cow for UEFA
|
|
rem6
Junior Member
[M:8775]
Posts: 51
|
Post by rem6 on Sept 15, 2010 0:39:53 GMT
money has destroyed football , its only a matter of time now before it implodes , if it wasnt for celtic id have no interest in football anymore , very sad for a bhoy that loved the game , but our problems lie much deeper than just money , poor coaching and proper education of the game is to blame imo , our kids struggle with the basics you see most foreign kids thrive at , ball control and the ability to pass to their own players , we seem to knock these basic skills out of our youths , how we manage this is a mystery , our youngsters seem to be able to compete against europes best kids , but are unable to make the step up , and make an impact as a pro again another mystery , so the only conclusion is they are being poorly educated by our coaching staff
|
|
|
Post by tictoc on Sept 15, 2010 11:31:54 GMT
Cant agree with the coaching side of the arguement.Our downfall has been for years now has been our inability to defend.This has cost us two CL places in the past two years.That money alone would have brought in £30 million.What could we have done with that money?.Look over to Mordor,we may hate them,but FFS,they can bring in defenders as if from a conveyor belt.Last nights result,and their run to the UEFA final,is testament to that.We have never got it right.Our Seville team had a good defence,but a dumpling in goal.We remedied that with Artur,then proceeded to lump various dumplings posing as CHs in front of him.If it was down to coaching,or the lack of it in Scotland,how do you account for the huns away form in europe.If we had brought in qualitylike they have done,we would be sitting on a cash cow of our own right now,and we would"nt be worrying about finances.We would be lauding Platini.Just think,if we had matched our home form,with the huns away form,we could have been lookin at last 8 in CL on a regular basis.We can blame all sorts of things for our poor showing in europe,many of them contributing,but it has been our inability to bring in good defenders for the past 9 years,which has seen our demise.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 15, 2010 11:53:31 GMT
Cant agree with the coaching side of the arguement.Our downfall has been for years now has been our inability to defend.This has cost us two CL places in the past two years.That money alone would have brought in £30 million.What could we have done with that money?.Look over to Mordor,we may hate them,but FFS,they can bring in defenders as if from a conveyor belt.Last nights result,and their run to the UEFA final,is testament to that.We have never got it right.Our Seville team had a good defence,but a dumpling in goal.We remedied that with Artur,then proceeded to lump various dumplings posing as CHs in front of him.If it was down to coaching,or the lack of it in Scotland, how do you account for the huns away form in europe.If we had brought in qualitylike they have done,we would be sitting on a cash cow of our own right now,and we would"nt be worrying about finances.We would be lauding Platini.Just think,if we had matched our home form,with the huns away form,we could have been lookin at last 8 in CL on a regular basis.We can blame all sorts of things for our poor showing in europe,many of them contributing,but it has been our inability to bring in good defenders for the past 9 years,which has seen our demise. You ask about the huns away form?, what about their home form?, their home form is dismal because they cant change tactics for Europe.
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2010 11:55:37 GMT
"our demise", when did that happen, I must have missed it. Last I seen we were top of the SPL, with four clean sheets from four games played and nine goals scored. I would hardly describe that as a club which had died.
|
|
|
Post by tictoc on Sept 15, 2010 12:17:49 GMT
Not talking about the huns home form.Its their ability to defend away from home i"m talking about.Something we cant do,nor have been able to do for years. When I said our demise,I was meaning in europe.Thats what the post was about,not the SPL after 4 games.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 15, 2010 12:34:36 GMT
Not talking about the huns home form.Its their ability to defend away from home i"m talking about.Something we cant do,nor have been able to do for years. When I said our demise,I was meaning in europe.Thats what the post was about,not the SPL after 4 games. Whats the point in having good away form when you lose your home games, The huns are drawing away from home and losing at home, i dont see the point in that.would any Celtic fan in their right mind go and watch celtic defend away from home in Europe?, I went to Berne years ago and Celtic defended for 90 mins..the worse game of football i've ever seen.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 15, 2010 12:41:18 GMT
Rangers boss Walter Smith has accused Uefa of making it impossible for the Scottish champions and a handful of other top clubs to do themselves justice in the Champions League.
Smith claimed he had no alternative but to use the sort of spoiling tactics which secured a gallant 0-0 draw against Manchester United at Old Trafford last night.
Gers played 5-4-1 and barely managed a single threat to the United goal, but they held on and a draw gave them a great start to their Group C campaign.
According to Smith teams like Rangers, Celtic and the major clubs from Holland and Portugal were in a hopeless situation when it comes to genuinely challenging in the Champions League.
“Our players are up against a situation that’s not of their making,” he said. “Uefa are allowing a situation to develop that is totally wrong. Bigger clubs in smaller countries are being drastically affected by the lack of finance and it’s very difficult to compete.
“It’s down to a manager to find a way, and in any walk of life it’s easier to stop people doing something than it is to create.”
He went on: “It’s a circumstance that we don’t feel proud of the fact we’re doing it, but there’s nothing else left for us. I must say that over the two or three years my boys have done it extremely well.
“We have to do that. Scottish teams now are not in the situation we were in several years ago when we were able to compete to sign top players.
“Rangers and Celtic have handled the situation in the Europa League, but it’s difficult in the Champions League with the financial disparity there is.
“I’m not just talking about Scotland. Clubs in Holland, Portugal and other countries are all suffering badly. They have next to no chance of winning the Champions League, the same as 85% of English teams have no chance of winning their league.”
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2010 12:56:51 GMT
Do it if you want Walter, it's your choice. However don't then come away with "A big boy made me do it and then ran away". That's the cowards option.
|
|
|
Post by tictoc on Sept 15, 2010 16:05:28 GMT
Sometimes I am amazed at the attitude of fellow tims.If we won all our home games in the CL,then put 9-10 men behind the ball,to get a point,away from home,you would be angry?What planet are you on?Never mind the huns home form.Have you read my post?I"m talking about their away form.Our last 2 visits to Man U,we have shipped 6 goals,they go there and Mc Gregor does not have to make a save.We are 2 goals up to Utrecht,7th in the Dutch league,and we lose 4 goals.!!!!FFS,if you think this is fine,we wont play the hun way,then it will be a long time before you watch CL again.In 1967,semi final,defending a 3-1 lead,we never went near their half.Big Jocks tactics worked a treat.As I said in my post,our problem has been we cannot defend,because we have never had the quality of player needed,not UEFAs fault,not Platinis fault,our fault.How long without a LB,how long without a good CH,how long without a good RB.OK at parkhead,but try to defend abroad,disaster,nearly every time.If you dont agree with me,fine,but if you think what I am saying is not true ,look at our away record,and get back to me.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 15, 2010 17:23:34 GMT
Sometimes I am amazed at the attitude of fellow tims.If we won all our home games in the CL,then put 9-10 men behind the ball,to get a point,away from home, you would be angry?What planet are you on?Never mind the huns home form.Have you read my post?I"m talking about their away form.Our last 2 visits to Man U,we have shipped 6 goals,they go there and Mc Gregor does not have to make a save.We are 2 goals up to Utrecht,7th in the Dutch league,and we lose 4 goals.!!!!FFS,if you think this is fine,we wont play the hun way,then it will be a long time before you watch CL again.In 1967,semi final,defending a 3-1 lead,we never went near their half.Big Jocks tactics worked a treat.As I said in my post,our problem has been we cannot defend,because we have never had the quality of player needed,not UEFAs fault,not Platinis fault,our fault.How long without a LB,how long without a good CH,how long without a good RB.OK at parkhead,but try to defend abroad,disaster,nearly every time.If you dont agree with me,fine,but if you think what I am saying is not true ,look at our away record,and get back to me. I said i wouldn't pay the money again to see them sit back and defend.against Dukla Prague was the only time Jock Stein used that tactic.Smith uses it at home in some European games as well, you are talking about left backs, right backs and centre halfs the Lisbon Lions was the last time we had decent ones, Celtic have traditionally been bad away in europe, we have never worked out how to play that way.Jock stein did.Maybe if we got back to the main topic of this thread that would maybe explain why?.Man Utd are miles ahead of Celtic finacially, when we lost 3-0 to them our defence was Naylor,Wilson,loovens and McManus...lucky it was 3..no Man Utd reserve players that night.
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2010 18:34:15 GMT
Smith used it at home against Partick Thistle in a cup tie 4-5-1.
Anyway, I thought this thread was about whether money had ruined European football. Not a discussion about what the huns did right and what we did wrong.
|
|
|
Post by clydebankcelt on Sept 15, 2010 18:42:18 GMT
Smith used it at home against Partick Thistle in a cup tie 4-5-1. Anyway, I thought this thread was about whether money had ruined European football. Not a discussion about what the huns did right and what we did wrong. In a strange way it adds up to the same thing, Did the huns play to their strengths by defending the whole game because they thought Man Utd might have played their multi million pounds signings?.
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2010 19:31:14 GMT
Smith used it at home against Partick Thistle in a cup tie 4-5-1. Anyway, I thought this thread was about whether money had ruined European football. Not a discussion about what the huns did right and what we did wrong. In a strange way it adds up to the same thing, Did the huns play to their strengths by defending the whole game because they thought Man Utd might have played their multi million pounds signings?. Well Walter must be a real genius then, when he got the opposition team sheet and didn't notice the team changes. The team he put out was always gong to be the team he put out so all he would have to have done was change tactics. He could easily have changed the formation by moving clubfoot to right back and putting whittaker in the midfield. That would have made it a normal back 4 instead of 5. He could then have gone with 4-5-1 or even 4-4-2. He didn't though which just shows that he was going to play that wat whatever team United put out. So in this instance it has little to do with what the opposition cost and more to the tactical decisions of Walter Noname. If you saw that team Man utd put out would you not have thought we might even get the win here if we try a bit. Sir Lex new that Walter wouldn't do anything other than put out a 100% defensive team and formation. That allowed him to play a rag tag mob and still be under no real pressure.
|
|